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Post by Buzz Cauldron on May 16, 2015 7:39:25 GMT
A gun and bullet will create recoil if fired in space, in accordance with Newton's laws. Gasses on the other hand, follow gas laws, Boyle, Joule etc. and cannot remain as a gas in the vacuum of space. The minute a gas molecule leaves a rocket engine it is 'free' and will dissipate across the vacuum of space without doing any work. That is why it maintains its momentum and continues to travel at a fixed velocity.
NASA's claim that rocket engine gasses push against each other to create thrust in space is nonsense. Each molecule leaves for the freedom of space at the same speed there is no backlog, no traffic jam created, no build up of pressure to exert force... It's a vacuum and gas cannot exist in a vacuum as there is no pressure to contain the gas.
Like a store opening its doors to a crowd when holding a sale, the pressure of people pushing to get through the door ceases to exist once a person enters the empty store. A person in the store does not exert a force back onto the crowd pushing from the other side of the doorway.
NASA was/is an extension of Hollywood. The continuous feed of space movies and tv shows in the 50's and 60's crossed over into a false reality show with Apollo and Kubrick. They told the biggest lie, so big that people would not be able to take on board it was untrue. How could they? The world's media is too overpowering for an individual to stand free and declare hoax while everyone else is celebrating man's great achievement of walking on the moon. It was a 30 billion dollar success movie.
What NASA couldn't anticipate was the power of research that the Internet would provide decades later, but their show continued on and it became false common knowledge that space travel was real and NASA continued to suck billions of tax dollars for their movies.
You don't have to unravel any of the conspiracy really, no need to research for years and look for hidden clues that might expose their tactics..... You simple need to grasp the natural laws of how gas exists and the whole sky falls in at once. Then you find your mind, like gas in a vacuum, is completely free from all internal pressure from the story you once mistook for the truth.
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Post by sceptimatic on May 16, 2015 8:48:28 GMT
Thank you very much, sceptimatic and for your brief post papa ? You are extremely logical, full of common sense, and have obviously debated this subject before with entities that will never listen to Truth. I do however have one point of contention...I believe a projectile from a barrel reaches it's maximum velocity while exiting the barrel. Hence, muzzle velocity being the measure of a bullets speed. It is accelerating down the barrel. I understand this has no bearing on your persuasive argument regarding the impossibility of rocket propulsion in zero g. Hell, there is no g! Yeah, I understand what you're saying but think on the basis that the real truth is not told to us in it's exact full on trthful form. They simply play guessing games in certain cases. Let's take the fring of a gun and let's equate that to the firing of anything, because they all observe the same laws of action/peak energy and reaction. So to explain a bullet in a pistol/rifle or even a cannon ball in a cannon; we are relying on the same things as what operates a crossbow, for instance. A bullet is placed in the chamber. The hammer detonates the cordite in the shell and the cordite heats up the atmosphere in that shell, which is only held back by the bullet and how securely it is pushed into that shell. Once the cordite ignition compression reaches breaking point, then out pops the bullet up the barrel followed by the gases that popped it out. To make this easier to understand, think of it like you have a big stick inside a pipe and on top of that big stick, you have a ball. Now you want to make that ball fly out of the top of that pipe, so you smash the back of the stick really hard which propels the ball out of the pipe with a smack, equal to the energy you placed onto the back end of the stick. All that happens from then is the stick follows the ball out of the pipe, only the ball has well gone while the stick is still exiting the pipe. See what I mean? Another way of seeing it is with a crossbow. You use your energy to pull back that bow string. You now have potential energy stored due to you anchoring it. The same can be said for the bullet. It's potential energy until you let go of the hammer. Now either way, you can only release the stored energy you put into the object. Action and reaction in EQUAL measures. You only get out of something what you put in. The upper supposed science world would like us all to believe that we can get more energy for less effort. WRONG. Ok, so you press the trigger of the crossbow and that bow string smacks the back of the crossbow bolt. The maximum energy hitting that bolt is the maximum speed that bolt will go. The only thing that can be changed is how it is projected through the air by means of a device to make it spin or to make it shoot more true, as in the longer barrel of a gun, for instance. Once a bullet exist the barrel of a gun, it slices through the air followed by the gases that expand the air. That air has been hit with an action and it will repsond in an equal and opposite reaction, just like a trampoline will reposnd to someone jumping down onto it. It will exert the same force back. The thing is, it's how people think of how a trampoline works, because to a person, it's simply elastic and springs you back. Under a trampoline we have atmosphere/air and it's basically doing little except slightly agitating due to temperature changes. When a person jumps on a trampoline they compress the air below them due to their density/mass and energy applied with the jump. What follows is the atmosphere above that person changing because the atmosphere below the trampoline has now been forced upwards and above it. People can't seem to get their heads around this. Basically whatever air you displace, you place it right back onto yourself. It's always equal reaction to action. If you simply jump up by using your thigh/calf/foot muscles, you are effectively jumping up against an upside down trampoline. It's like trying to push through the trampoline with your head and that trampoline pushing back against your head to push you to the floor. I implore people to take their time to undertsand what I'm saying here, because if you do, you'll not only see that rockets need atmosphere at all times...but everything needs it and NOTHING moves without it. Also, if you undertsand atmospheric pressure, you will also understand that it also kills off gravity, because gravity is a lie to cater for the reality of what really is gravity...which is my own thoughts on atmospheric pressure or better known as my replacement for gravity being "denpressure." This not only kills off the globe and space travel, it opens up the truth about what this Earth really is...if people are prepared to sit back and search their logical brains and are willing to put mainstream indoctrinated beliefs in the filing cabinet at the back of their brains for a good while, until they give themselves a chance to grasp the reality. |
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Post by sceptimatic on May 16, 2015 8:51:32 GMT
A gun and bullet will create recoil if fired in space, in accordance with Newton's laws. Gasses on the other hand, follow gas laws, Boyle, Joule etc. and cannot remain as a gas in the vacuum of space. The minute a gas molecule leaves a rocket engine it is 'free' and will dissipate across the vacuum of space without doing any work. That is why it maintains its momentum and continues to travel at a fixed velocity. NASA's claim that rocket engine gasses push against each other to create thrust in space is nonsense. Each molecule leaves for the freedom of space at the same speed there is no backlog, no traffic jam created, no build up of pressure to exert force... It's a vacuum and gas cannot exist in a vacuum as there is no pressure to contain the gas. Like a store opening its doors to a crowd when holding a sale, the pressure of people pushing to get through the door ceases to exist once a person enters the empty store. A person in the store does not exert a force back onto the crowd pushing from the other side of the doorway. NASA was/is an extension of Hollywood. The continuous feed of space movies and tv shows in the 50's and 60's crossed over into a false reality show with Apollo and Kubrick. They told the biggest lie, so big that people would not be able to take on board it was untrue. How could they? The world's media is too overpowering for an individual to stand free and declare hoax while everyone else is celebrating man's great achievement of walking on the moon. It was a 30 billion dollar success movie. What NASA couldn't anticipate was the power of research that the Internet would provide decades later, but their show continued on and it became false common knowledge that space travel was real and NASA continued to suck billions of tax dollars for their movies. You don't have to unravel any of the conspiracy really, no need to research for years and look for hidden clues that might expose their tactics..... You simple need to grasp the natural laws of how gas exists and the whole sky falls in at once. Then you find your mind, like gas in a vacuum, is completely free from all internal pressure from the story you once mistook for the truth. Good post. |
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Post by aliveandkicking on May 17, 2015 8:07:48 GMT
A gun and bullet will create recoil if fired in space, in accordance with Newton's laws. NASA's claim that rocket engine gasses push against each other to create thrust in space is nonsense. NASA does not make that claim. |
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Post by aliveandkicking on May 17, 2015 8:15:44 GMT
"I explained before the rocket burns fuel and accelerates gases because the acceleration of the gases requires work." Until it comes out into the vacuum of space. Work = pressure x velocity There's zero pressure in a vacuum. 0 x anything = 0 If you walk up stairs you are doing work but there is almost no pressure involved in calculating the amount of work because your resistance thru the air is so small. Work will be mass X acceleration when considering a rocket. A Saturn 5 ejected 12 tonnes of gas at over 4km a second at liftoff to create a ginormous recoil as that huge amount of material was continually fired rearwards at such a mind boogling speed. As i have said many times before a rocket is just a particle gun |
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Post by Buzz Cauldron on May 17, 2015 19:00:08 GMT
"Work will be mass X acceleration when considering a rocket."
The only thing you need to consider is the established gas laws that state a gas cannot exist in a vacuum.
Molecules exit a rocket into a vacuum with potential energy; their momentum remains constant as they are free from pressure and therefore dispersed across empty space with no acceleration. The energy is never converted into work because they do not collide with anything. whatever energy the rocket has put into a gas molecule stays with that molecule until it interacts with another mass, which in the vacuum of space doesn't exist.
"As i have said many times before a rocket is just a particle gun"
This is a mischievous analogy. It is a long way off from a particle gun - whatever that is. All a rocket engine does is create a thermal expansion of gasses, something that cannot exist in a vacuum.
It'll work in an atmosphere, it won't work in a vacuum.
You're reasoning seems to be founded on mass-based Newtonian physics - like bullets from a gun. However, gas molecules are not 'fired' out of a rocket engine, they are released from a confined state, i.e. under pressure.
A gun firing a bullet will give you recoil, a flame thrower will not.
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Post by aliveandkicking on May 17, 2015 19:38:53 GMT
"Work will be mass X acceleration when considering a rocket." The only thing you need to consider is the established gas laws that state a gas cannot exist in a vacuum. Molecules exit a rocket into a vacuum with potential energy; their momentum remains constant as they are free from pressure and therefore dispersed across empty space with no acceleration. The energy is never converted into work because they do not collide with anything. whatever energy the rocket has put into a gas molecule stays with that molecule until it interacts with another mass, which in the vacuum of space doesn't exist. "As i have said many times before a rocket is just a particle gun" This is a mischievous analogy. It is a long way off from a particle gun - whatever that is. All a rocket engine does is create a thermal expansion of gasses, something that cannot exist in a vacuum. It'll work in an atmosphere, it won't work in a vacuum. You're reasoning seems to be founded on mass-based Newtonian physics - like bullets from a gun. However, gas molecules are not 'fired' out of a rocket engine, they are released from a confined state, i.e. under pressure. A gun firing a bullet will give you recoil, a flame thrower will not. Any material ejected with direction will create a recoil. A flamethrower for example. Flames have mass. Gas under enormous pressure that travels out of an opening has velocity and direction A vaccuum cannot suck. A vacuum is nothing. It has no power to alter the direction of the particles leaving the rocket nozzle. |
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Post by Buzz Cauldron on May 17, 2015 20:09:38 GMT
"If you walk up stairs you are doing work...."
Your foot has a step to push against. Now walk an imaginary staircase while floating in a zero gravity vacuum. You'll wiggle you limbs but you'll never move.
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Post by Buzz Cauldron on May 17, 2015 20:36:11 GMT
You're trying to turn a gas into a solid so you can call on Newton.
Meanwhile Joule is spinning motionless in his grave.
Take the solids out of your equation, you're dealing with gas. Pressure is a key property of gas, without pressure gas doesn't exist.
The state of 'no pressure' is the vacuum of space.
A rocket valve doesn't release an energised gas molecule into a 'something' so as to push against it, the molecule simply exists the pressurised contain that kept it in gas form and returns to the equilibrium of space taking it's potential energy with it.
Nothing pushes back against the rocket.
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Post by aliveandkicking on May 17, 2015 20:41:13 GMT
You're trying to turn a gas into a solid so you can call on Newton. Meanwhile Joule is spinning motionless in his grave. Take the solids out of your equation, you're dealing with gas. Pressure is a key property of gas, without pressure gas doesn't exist. The state of 'no pressure' is the vacuum of space. A rocket valve doesn't release an energised gas molecule into a 'something' so as to push against it, the molecule simply exists the pressurised contain that kept it in gas form and returns to the equilibrium of space taking it's potential energy with it. Nothing pushes back against the rocket. You are muddled up. A rocket does not push against anything. It recoils as a reaction to the action of material leaving the rocket. A gas has mass and that is all that matters |
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Post by aliveandkicking on May 17, 2015 20:49:55 GMT
"If you walk up stairs you are doing work...." Your foot has a step to push against. Now walk an imaginary staircase while floating in a zero gravity vacuum. You'll wiggle you limbs but you'll never move. That was just an example to illustrate that pressure is not a significant part of work To get propulsion in a vacuum you have to throw things in the opposite direction in which you want to move. Very simple physics >>May 16, 2015 10:39:25 GMT 3 Buzz Cauldron said: A gun and bullet will create recoil if fired in space, in accordance with Newton's laws. Gasses on the other hand, follow gas laws, Boyle, Joule etc. and cannot remain as a gas in the vacuum of space. The minute a gas molecule leaves a rocket engine it is 'free' and will dissipate across the vacuum of space without doing any work. That is why it maintains its momentum and continues to travel at a fixed velocity. You are showing you do not understand newtons laws. All objects with mass are going to create a recoil if these objects with mass are ejected out of a device in space. A gas has mass. Mass is ejected out of the rocket. Once the gas leaves the rocket nozzle going backwards it forms no part in the movement of the rocket. It is the act of accelerating the fuel out of the rocket that creates the recoil >>A rocket valve doesn't release an energised gas molecule into a 'something' so as to push against it Agreed. The rocket recoils because it accellerates burnt fuel out of the rocket, where the thrust is equal to mass X acceleration |
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Post by Buzz Cauldron on May 17, 2015 20:57:31 GMT
Your rocket theory is the equivalent to kicking a football around inside a caravan and when the ball shoots out an open door... the caravan is propelled forward.
You have to agree to that being true to continue believing that rockets can work in a vacuum.
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Post by aliveandkicking on May 17, 2015 20:59:50 GMT
Your rocket theory is the equivalent to kicking a football around inside a caravan and when the ball shoots out an open door... the caravan is propelled forward. You have to agree to that being true to continue believing that rockets can work in a vacuum. Agreed. When the shooter hits the ball he recoils and he is 'fixed' to the caravan so the caravan recoils sideways if the door is on the side in the middle To kick a football hard you have to lean over the ball to get the force needed to drive the ball forwards, because once you begin accelerating your leg forwards your upper body is driven backwards |
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Post by Buzz Cauldron on May 17, 2015 21:08:21 GMT
The analogy users the shooter, the reality doesn't. Gas molecules are not 'kicked' into action, energy is added to them to create thermal expansion. They become charged. They bounce around randomly until the moment they point towards the clear open nothingness of the vacuum of space... as viewed from behind the rocket outlet valve. They simply continue on their last path, same velocity, constant momentum; not 'ejected', not propelled, simply carrying on 'as they were'. Nothing is pushed back to the rocket. Freedom molecules, they touch nothing so push against nothing.
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Post by aliveandkicking on May 17, 2015 21:12:10 GMT
The analogy users the shooter, the reality doesn't. Gas molecules are not 'kicked' into action, energy is added to them to create thermal expansion. They become charged. They bounce around randomly until the moment they point towards the clear open nothingness of the vacuum of space... as viewed from behind the rocket outlet valve. They simply continue on their last path, same velocity, constant momentum; not 'ejected', not propelled, simply carrying on 'as they were'. Nothing is pushed back to the rocket. Freedom molecules, they touch nothing so push against nothing. It does not matter how many times a ball bounces around a caravan if it comes out of the caravan the caravan has on balance recoiled. The particles inside the rocket begin with no motion and end up being accelerated out of the rocket. Forget about "the moment they point towards the clear open nothingness of the vacuum of space... as viewed from behind the rocket outlet valve. They simply continue on their last path, same velocity, constant momentum not 'ejected', not propelled, simply carrying on 'as they were'. Nothing is pushed back to the rocket. Freedom molecules, they touch nothing so push against nothing. " That part is not relevant to the recoil, With the exception of the word 'propelled' but that happens before the beginning of that quoted text. You already agree the particles are being accelerated from rest out of the rocket. Agreed? ------------ >>Molecules exit a rocket into a vacuum with potential energy The molecules have chemical potential energy while unburnt in the rocket due to the chemical energy they have. When they exit the rocket they no longer have potential energy. They have kinetic energy. |
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Post by Buzz Cauldron on May 17, 2015 21:40:10 GMT
"The particles inside the rocket begin with no motion"
I'll finish the conversation here. *leaves with book on gas laws*
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Post by aliveandkicking on May 17, 2015 21:53:30 GMT
"The particles inside the rocket begin with no motion" I'll finish the conversation here. *leaves with book on gas laws* Yeah that was a bit stupid. No net motion would have been better. The particles are only motionless for the purposes of the energy created by heating when they are at absolute zero. By the way I got a chemistry degree 34 years ago so there is no need to be shy about talking about gas laws. At a guess if you do have those books and do not understand how a rocket works you are at high school >>>>Molecules exit a rocket into a vacuum with potential energy Hopefully you now realise a gas has mass, the rocket creates a stream of particles with kinetic energy and therefore the rocket must recoil or the laws of physics are wrong. And that has nothing to do with the gas laws overriding Newtonian physics!  |
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Post by Kobe on May 18, 2015 20:23:49 GMT
Astronauts Gone Wild
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Post by Kobe on May 18, 2015 20:29:07 GMT
sorry wrong department- False flag |
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Post by aliveandkicking on May 21, 2015 10:12:24 GMT
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Post by papa legba on May 23, 2015 6:49:45 GMT
If a gun is like a rocket, then a cigarette lighter is like a catapult & a candle is like a baseball pitcher... etc, etc, ad absurdum.
That's the thing with FALSE ANALOGIES; you can argue forever about them without getting anywhere.
Who on earth would want to do such a thing?
Science is about making accurate predictions, so I predict this: as long as this thread is in existence, 'aliveandkicking', or someone of his ilk, will be here to attempt to subvert it.
Further; I predict that FALSE ANALOGIES will play a major role in his argumentation.
Now carry on; prove me wrong...
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Post by aliveandkicking on May 23, 2015 17:51:48 GMT
If a gun is like a rocket, then a cigarette lighter is like a catapult & a candle is like a baseball pitcher... etc, etc, ad absurdum. That's the thing with FALSE ANALOGIES; you can argue forever about them without getting anywhere. Who on earth would want to do such a thing? Science is about making accurate predictions, so I predict this: as long as this thread is in existence, 'aliveandkicking', or someone of his ilk, will be here to attempt to subvert it. Further; I predict that FALSE ANALOGIES will play a major role in his argumentation. Now carry on; prove me wrong... A cigarette lighter is like a rocket. We can accurately predict the cigarette lighter will recoil when gas comes out. Otherwise the laws of physics are wrong. |
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Post by papa legba on May 23, 2015 18:11:18 GMT
LOL!
Thank you for proving me 100% right.
'A cigarette lighter is like a rocket'; yeah - why not?
Any other laughable FALSE ANALOGIES you'd like to spam us with before bedtime?
Good night...
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Post by papa legba on May 23, 2015 18:23:37 GMT
P.s. ever owned a Zippo?
I'm flicking mine at the moment, but no matter how hard I flick, it just doesn't look or act like a rocket...
Guess it's just me though...
LOL!!!
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Post by aliveandkicking on May 24, 2015 7:32:20 GMT
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Post by papa legba on Jun 2, 2015 20:08:36 GMT
I actually said'a cigarette lighter is like a catapult' but whatever; seems like you're just spamming anything now.
The 'man on the skateboard' FALSE ANALOGY for rocket travel is easily debunked thus: NASA claims that the skateboard represents the rocket, the man represents the engine & the medicine ball (or whatever other MASS he throws) represents the rocket exhaust.
This is FALSE.
In fact, it is the MAN'S ARM that represents the exhaust (for what else do you do when you throw something if not IMPART THRUST upon it?), whilst the medicine ball represents an outside mass that the exhaust is thrusting against.
Such as, ooh, I dunno.. The Atmosphere, maybe?
Or do you deny that the atmosphere has mass?
If you want an example of a rocket exhaust PUSHING against an OUTSIDE MASS then look up 'backblast' from bazookas or RPG's.
This is a well-documented phenomenon & many videos are available of it in action.
It proves that a rocket exhaust will push against an outside mass.
The atmosphere has mass.
Ergo, a rocket CAN push on the atmosphere.
Can anyone provide similar real-world proof of a rocket exhaust 'pushing on itself', as NASA claims it does?
Off you go...
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Post by papa legba on Jun 8, 2015 19:12:07 GMT
Btw; there seems to be an ongoing effort by NASA & their troll-army to associate the idea that rockets cannot function in vacuum with a belief in Flat Earth.
So I'll just say here that I do not believe the Earth is flat.
Which is irrelevant anyway, because no matter what shape it is rockets still cannot function in a vacuum.
The laws of physics won't let them.
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Post by LIT on Jun 9, 2015 12:36:29 GMT
@papa legba
That was an interesting point. It also seems to me that they want to link the space travel hoax with flat Earth, so that people stop questioning the space travel altogether.
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Post by papa legba on Jun 9, 2015 20:59:37 GMT
Yes; seems NASA are getting desperate, so started this whole Flat Earth craze off in an attempt to tarnish the opposition by association (Matt Boylan? Mark Sargent? LOL!).
I saw it all coming months ago.
They also have Concave Earth theory waiting in the wings as backup (Lord Steven Christ? LOL!).
In the short term it may work; but in the long run it will backfire on them.
Especially if it gives people like Sceptimatic, Boethius & myself the opportunity to spread our knowledge on a few new forums.
Because, really, it isn't difficult to prove NASA's rocketry claims false; they hide behind Newton's 3rd Law like poker players bragging & bluffing behind a bad hand.
In truth Newton's 3rd is their worst enemy; learn to apply it correctly & see through the Lies.
Action <-=-> Reaction; Equal <-+-> Opposite. Just think about it.
Honestly; it is not hard.
Oh; they try their best to make it so...
But it isn't.
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Post by nj_guest on Jun 16, 2015 16:29:03 GMT
So, here's a way to visualize how rockets work.
Sit on a skateboard on a flat surface.
Grab a bowling ball, and throw it horizontally as hard as you can. You'll notice that, as soon as the bowling ball leaves your hands, you move backwards.
The same thing would happen with smaller mass, say, a baseball, but you won't be moving as fast. But imagine you had, on the skateboard, a sack of baseballs, and continued to throw them in the same direction. Your speed will steadily increase.
Now, we're doing this experiment in Earth's atmosphere, so how can we be sure we're not just pushing against the air in the atmosphere?
Simple - do the experiment again, but this time, blow up a balloon so that it's the same size as the bowling ball. Same size - same amount of air being displaced.
But you won't move when throwing a balloon.
That's how rockets work.
To everyone that thinks free expansion is related - remember that free expansion requires an "ideal gas" - these are typically at normal to high temperatures and low pressures (not what you'll find in a rocket engine).
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