Rocket propulsion in vacuum

p.s. I expect there to be a bit of a pause, whilst our free-thinking friend googles 'non-hypergolic liquid-fuelled rocket motor', before he returns to bore us with more copy-pasta wiki-spam nonsense..

But I hope we can all see through his game by now, can't we?

I have now googled Hypergolic propellant

Not sure what your point is.   Hypergolic propellant just being something that spontaneously burns on mixing.

Having an ignition system for a non-hypergolic rocket sounds very familiar to most people surely?

You seem to be playing with words.  Yes a gun uses a non-hypergolic propellant because you dont want the gun to spontaneously go off.

Do you have a point to make by drawing attention to the fact a gun and a rocket requiring ignition both require non-hypergolic fuels?

It seems the main point of your argument is a rocket working like a gun is a ludicrously false analogy fit only for children and idiots.    If you dont mind perhaps you can expand
on that a bit?   I am not sure why the analogy can be false when it is just physics they will work the same way if propellant is expelled from the rocket in a focused particle beam
that trails behind the rocket

You say that space is not totally empty, yet at the same time it appears that something in that space can travel forever as long as it doesn't come up against some gravitational (cough) force or some kind of body (planet) hampering it's journey.

From this we have a comet with a tail that leaves debris  behind it. How?
A car on a race track will leave tyre debris behind it due to FRICTION. Your space has NONE or extremely little of this because basically it has no atmosphere, so can't create any friction, so we get told, yet here's your comets leaving big tails.

We can still have solar winds and particle beams but the question is, HOW?
Loose particles against blackness?
Scattered particles just doing what they want? unattached but still capable of emitting some focused particle light beam or creating a solar wind. This stuff is absolute nonsense.

The science world has made a vacuum out to be nothing special to us. It's just a vacuum...so what.
People accept this because they don't know what else to say about it. It's a vacuum that has a FEW scattered particles in it and that's that. This needs people to start using their common sense to see this garbage for what it is.

All the clues are there for this Earth and so called space and what a true vacuum would be and it can all be seen in a vacuum chamber, if people care to use their logic.
It surprising how many refuse to do that. I'd love to explain it all but the last time I tried I was jumped on by shill after shill who muddied it all and scared people away from trying to understand it.
You appear to be focused on your globe and gravity, plus space and such. I don't expect you to budge from your indoctrination, unless you tell me that you are serious about questioning your schooling.

By all means stick to your space and globe stuff but don't waste it on me.

As I said, LIT is the administrator, and zero11s is the moderator, They both limit their intervention to ensuring mutual respect and freedom of speech.

This site seems insincere. You lot carry on, I'm out of here.

Maybe we can focus together on what you are getting at here.    An absolute vacuum on earth is impossible.    The atmosphere of earth also does not have an absolute edge as such.  The atmosphere simply becomes thinner and thinner till it is essentially no different to the rest of the space further from Earth. 

Particles streaming out of a rocket is not something that is weird or difficult to visualise.

What are you getting at?

I was going to vacate this forum but what the hell, I'll take you on because you seem a more reasonable globalist.

How about you trying to understand what you just said to me about the vacuum.
I'll explain it to you and you can try and grasp what and why I've said it.

First of all you are correct in that you cannot make a true vacuum at sea level on Earth. The reason is very simple, yet few people will care to understand.
We live under a pressure of around 15 psi. That's 15 pounds of pressure per square inch. How do you eradicate that pressure?
The easiest way to eradicate some of it is to use a bell jar or vacuum chamber or to be more precise, an evacuation chamber.

How do we evacuate the air pressure from the chamber and what exactly is evacuation of pressure?
The simple answer is, you push atmosphere away from the chamber. You do not SUCK air pressure from the chamber?

I'll leave it here for now to see if you agree with me on this before I carry on. If you don't agree, tell me why. I'll go through this very carefully with you and it may open your eyes or at least open the eyes of genuine people who want the truth of what we are living on.

Sorry but that makes no sense at all to me. Can you explain what you mean about pushing cylinders and such and natural forces, plus diffusion just so I can be clear on why you think like you do. I can explain it all but I need to know where you're at with this stuff. 

At the end you say this....." Eventually you find you are introducing as many particles as you are causing to leave and no further vacuum can be created."
Can you explain what you mean by this as well?

@ aliveandkicking:

Ok, you seem to get the fact that reducing atmospheric pressure results in expansion of molecules, right? Do you agree with this? If not, can you explain why not?

Anyway, I'll explain a few things about a vacuum or what people perceive about a vacuum.
As you say, nature abhors a vacuum. It basically cannot be achieved at sea level, no matter what. A very low pressure can be achieved inside a container with sufficient strength against external 15 psi pressure. So how is this achieved.

Let's look at a pump that pumps air out of a container. Just like your syringe in your video, you can see that it's the air in front the the plunger that is compressed out of the syringe and cannot be compressed anymore because the valve is closed meaning the air has nowhere to go.

This is why everything has to be equal or nothing moves. It's action/reaction in equal terms, always or nothing works.

Now looking at that syringe, you should be in no doubt at all that a rocket cannot work in what you believe is a vacuum of space, because like the syringe in atmosphere with its closed valve, nothing goes anywhere and if that valve opens, all that happens is the syringe gets filled with the air that's pushed out. It's action and reaction which counteracts each other.

In your space vacuum, you have NOTHING. You have a so called rocket full of fuel and one opening to let off burning gas which would freely expand into fantasy space vacuum, leaving your rocket a so called floating dud. Common sense should kick in here to tell you how absurd this space stuff is. Seriously.

Let's make this easier.
Let's use your syringe as your rocket.
Let's imagine you holding the plunger top in one hand and the needle end base in your other hand. You now exert equal pressure by pushing against the plunger and resisting that push with your other hand.

Ok, as you can see, you syringe (rocket) goes nowhere. It stays still.
Ok, we now want to release the built up compressed gas so someone opens the blue lever (rocket nozzle)and what happens?
We see that the compressed air inside starts to shoot out in one direction but what happens to the plunger side?
It shoots off in the SAME direction, not the opposite direction. Why?
Because one has counteracted the other. Equal reaction to action.

Science has told you lies about molecules and what they do and how they react. I don't expect you to believe me as I know your mind is focused on your globe and no conspiracies. I hope that the free thinkers of this forum will ask me questions on all this stuff and Ill give them the POTENTIAL truth. I cannot say it's the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth because I'm simply a mere mortal with common sense and logic.

What I can offer is a better reality based on logic if people can allow themselves to wipe the brainwashed mainstream crap science from their minds and replace it with common sense of which there are real life experimental observations in front of them that should leave them in no doubt as to how deep the lies have gone in keeping our minds in fantasy world.

Get this into your minds, even if you think of it as a deep thought experiment. SPACE AS YOU ARE TOLD, DOES NOT EXIST. IT'S A FANTASY. YOU ARE TRAPPED INSIDE WHAT SHOULD BE A COMFORTABLE DOMED CELL WITH ALL YOU NEED TO SURVIVE. THE ONLY PROBLEM IS, YOUR FREEDOM OF BODY AND MIND IS CONTROLLED BY PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT FIT TO LACE YOUR BOOTS AND WHO USE THE GIFT OF THE GAB TO CONTROL YOU. THE PEN IS MIGHTIER THAN THE SWORD AND IT'S SADLY TRUE.
YOUR WELL BEING IS DECIDED BY HOW MUCH PRINTED PAPER YOU CARRY OR HOW MANY DIGITS GLOW ON A CASH MACHINE.


Anyway I won't go into that because it detracts from the issue of rockets in a vacuum.
Anyone who thinks a rocket of the sizes they see on TV, especially the saturn V stupidity, can rise into the sky and into space...seriously and I mean SERIOUSLY start looking at the actual reality of it all and stop being gobsmacked by fantasy models that take off as fast as a rusty motorbike, as true as an arrow.
You have been coaxed into taking leave of your senses for the small time frame of fantasy. This is fine for kids. Leave it at that and grow up and see this stuff for what it clearly is...which is a massive fantasy designed to cater for all of your levels of attitude, from excitement to fear, etc, depending on what's put out at the time to keep control of your mind.

aliveandkicking

So you don't have any doubts in NASA and the space travel?

It seems, then, that if there is supposed to be a vacuum in space, then if a rocket were out there, the thrust that comes out of the nozzle would not push it forward, but simply try to "take up the space" that is not there (because it is a vacuum) - so it would then go nowhere.

Also, if our atmosphere is not a closed system, but open and "dissipating" one as they say,  as it goes higher toward "space" then how can "scientists" claim that if the earth rotates and orbits, we do not fly off the surface? The examples often used are when you are in a car, or airplane or elevator, you do not experience "movement" but move with the system as if you were stationary - but these are all closed systems.

The atmosphere would have to be a completely closed system for that to be true and also for it to be true that our air is not sucked out into the "vacuum" of space, no? Maybe I am not clear enough - please let me know if I am not.

No, a vacuum cannot suck anything into it because a vacuum is the absence of all matter to our mindset. Basically a true vacuum means none existence of all matter and all wavelengths, meaning no light, sound, or any life giving properties. In essence it is what's known as SUSPENDED ANIMATION. The Earth can exist in it as a closed system. The Earth can grow and shrink against it but cannot freely move within it.

Human arrogance and naivety is why we believe in space. It even makes me look rather deranged trying to tell people that space does not exist and what you see is the direct result of reflections from the very place you survive on. Your cell. Your cocoon with your ice dome top that acts as your comfort mirror or basically it's your reflective life giving wavelength spectrum of heat and light plus your pretty colours.

No manned rocket has ever went into the sky. Many rockets have went into the sky. They call them missiles. They don't go very high because fuel to weigh ratio sees to that. A minute or two and they are spent, no matter what size they are.

All the big stuff you see on the TV is simply Hollywood bullshit. I don't expect people to believe me. Most people won't because they are trained to call people like me a nutter. A conspiracy nut job. A lunatic with no life. A loner who walks about with placards proclaiming the end of the world is nigh and all the rest of the rigged up crap they dish out.

People just love fantasy. They do not want  to see their fantasies destroyed by someone telling the truth. It's like trying to tell a kid that Santa isn't responsible for them having all their presents. Santa took the credit because Mam and Dad decided to follow protocol and go the way of most parents who wanted to create the fantasy for them as they had when they were kids.
Most adults know Santa isn't real but in the back of their minds, they wonder.

You never get hit by meteors but will always get told that it's only a matter of time that a big rogue rock will slam into Earth that just happened to be whizzing about space for thousands of years before rebounding off another rock and heading for Earth.
The people that tell you this utter dog shit are the very same people who possess the same shaped head as your own and wear similar clothes but are fortunate enough to be born into riches which gives them bullshitting rights.
All it needs is for the masses to gather in their robes and listen to it, then go home and spread the word, that the man in the suit who owns 12 million acres and is worshipped by well paid white coated egg heads with bullshit fantasy for brains, is the genius who knows what's going on.

Most of these bozo's can't fit a level shelf. They sprain their own wrists wiring a frigging plug. They dislocate their own fingers making a weak brew of tea. They're no good at the real stuff. Ask then to tell you about the universe and they can reel off as much bullshit fantasy as you're willing to swallow and do it in the full knowledge that you will never prove them wrong.

I don't think it's any more pleasant to think of either. Most people are oblivious as to what any of it actually means. Many people get told about a vacuum of space and think of thinks just floating about in it.
Most people when told about Earth killing potential meteors, simply go about life without a care.

"Hi dear, there's a meteor the size of America heading towards Earth and could hit in so many years."
"Never mind that, I have things to do instead of worrying about what if's and what not's."

The only way you make people take notice is to saturate the news channels and make things appear catastrophic. This gets attention and this scares the public.
The problem is, those brain box bozo's who think this shit up have to be careful about playing games like that on meteor scales and such because they know that the human race is made up mostly, of people who abandon rational thought in the wake of disaster or potential disaster.
Most will loot their neighbour for their food. Many would loot shops, etc. All on the back of a news story line of looming disaster.

It's not exactly surprising to understand how easy the average person is duped, is it. I was one of them, once upon a time. I bought into it all. I trusted the news sources.
It takes a long time for people to wake up. Some people will never wake up and some are basically paid to keep the average Joe asleep. These people are the faces we see on TV floating about in pretend space stations, etc.

Anyone who calls themselves, astronauts, are actors. All these space boffins that sit in front of the camera's and tell the world how they landed this and that on mars, are just paid actors.
It doesn't need a genius to spot a liar. It doesn't need a person with any qualifications to see the difference between truth and lies when it's paraded on this scale. The crap actors spell the lies out all by themselves but gullible people just won't or don't have the thought to actually take a look at these bozo's spinning yarns.

Go and look at a lot of the so called ISS videos of them explaining what they do. They talk about it as if they are talking to infant school kids.
I can picture some of you thinking, " yeah but they will target kids to teach them." I agree but this is space as they tell us. It's science. It's amazing feats of engineering and heroics by mission specialists and ship commanders, etc.
The same as curiousity tweeting that it's landed and all the rest of the crap.

Landing on a comet and all the rest of it.
It's ALL fantasy. All of it is fantasy.

How many of you have looked at the saturn V rockets lifing off, or the shuttle, etc and thought, " how in the hell do those things get off the floor into space?"
Most of you will, yet what are your thoughts?
It's simple. It's a "wow."

Let me explain something to take away the wow factor and replace it with reality.
Go and look at missile launches from the back of trucks or from some platform. Not space rocket. I mean missile.

Pay attention as to how those things take off. Understand that a rocket is essentially an unstable dart that has to be thrown at speed to achieve stability into the sky.
Understand that throwing a dart in slow motion will render that dart an unstable mess.

Forget about gimbals and what not. Use common sense.
Whenever you see a genuine rocket launch, you will see a springboard effect. The rocket has to use full thrust to springboard it into the air because that's the speed it will be going, vertically.

Now go and look at the so called space launches. They are launched in slow motion but are made out to be launched at slow speed in a true vertical fashion and build up speed into the sky. It's nonsense.
Those rocket's are Hollywood rockets, or missiles launched for the general public to see.

You see a supposed real rocket with astronauts on, on TV and at so called launch, they simply launch a missile into the sea in real time for the gullible public to paw over.

The silly part is when you get people shout, " no, no, I saw the shuttle with my own eyes." Pointless wasting another second on these people.

People are willing to totally abandon logic and common sense for any fantasy that the media tells them, that is narrated by a so called scientific genius that become the housewives her or the gentleman's trusty science guru.

Balls of fire that are billions of light years in space in other galaxies, seen by the Hubble telescope. Seriously?...I mean, seriously?
Why in the hell do normal functioning everyday people who are capable of being extremely rational if they choose and who can figure things out to make their lives better...why in the hell do they abandon basic evidence and vision to even accept any of this absolute gunk as anything other than a collective group of fantasy merchants rigged up nonesense that is pushed out as a reality to the point of frenzy.

You have a blue sky up there because of wavelength spectrum colour/light. It has a ceiling which seals us in. No space for us to go into.
Why think like this when you can believe you're spinning around on a ball at over 100 mph in a vacuum and just happen to also spin at around 67,000 mph around a huge nuclear ball of fire that is 850,000 miles in diameter.
For crying out loud, why do people choose to totally abandon logic for that muck?

Why can't people just sit back and think. "hmmm, what kind of crap is this we've been sold."...then take some time out to actually go through it all...because once you do, if you're rational and logical...you'll slap your own face as how naive you've been in allowing yourself to be took in on such a ridiculous scale.


I'm harping on too much here but the lies are epidemic and have been historically for as far back as you care to go. Sifting through it all can seem pointless. I wonder why I bother at times, when I should be just living out my life doing other stuff.

aliveandkicking

A rocket engine might be indeed simple, but I tend to agree with sceptimatic. I have watched many interviews and videos with astronauts and I can't help but notice that they seem to be acting. I don't know why this is, but they do seem insincere. I know it is just an impression, but sceptimatic is right that we don't have any evidence they do what they claim they do except for our blind faith in some organizations like NASA. In fact, the space travel hoax is one the easiest to pull off. After all, you can't build your own rocket and test their claims yourself. You can't check if there are people on ISS. Even if you can see the ISS flying by, it doesn't mean that you can prove it is manned. As for the rocket propulsion, I don't think it can work in practice, because the rocket must carry more fuel than its own weight. It is like baron Muchausen pulling himself out of a mire by his own hair. It just sounds like a joke.